Who is the real heavyweight GOAT: Miocic or Emelianenko?

Stipe Miocic has successfully closed the book on Daniel Cormier with two successive victories over the former Strikeforce Grand Prix champion, replete with a knockout win in 2019 and a decision win in 2020. Naturally, the UFC promotional machine put all of their firepower into this rubber match, preemptively ensuring that the winner would own the ‘greatest heavyweight of all time’ label, for whatever that may be worth. Most of the staff was glad to see Miocic defeat Cormier for the sake of its own merits, but now that the dust has settled, it’s time to put that thesis to scrutiny. Today, Kyle McLachlan and Danny Martin will debate the true HW GOAT between the Pride legend, Fedor Emelianenko and the UFC stalwart, Stipe Miocic. 

Comparing Resumes

Kyle: First off, I want to say one thing: even as someone who will be batting for Fedor in this discussion, I’ve seen plenty of folks online who seem to tweet whilst wearing rose-tinted spectacles. The whole ‘Fedor’s era was so much better’ is incorrect in my opinion, but there are some factors in play that don’t automatically make Stipe’s era automatically superior as well. I might keep these in my back pocket and let Danny show his hand first. 

Danny: Much obliged, Kyle. In all seriousness, the gap between heavyweights back then and heavyweights now is probably not as wide as it seems. The margins in the big boy divisions have always been pretty narrow, and while I could see a Pride great like Big Nog snapping up submission victories over many top 10 opponents today, I wouldn’t be surprised if Derrick Lewis stronked his way to another KO victory against the Brazilian either. All this is to say, the sport of MMA has made great leaps and bounds in terms of technical growth over the last decade or so, but heavyweight remains frozen in time and space. On a certain level, this makes discussing the supposed ‘greatest heavyweight of all time’ in a sport barely two decades old fairly straightforward.

Kyle: Certainly complicated (kind of like two boxing fans in the 1910’s debating who was greater out of Jim Jeffries and Jack Johnson, assuming they’d never fought each other) but a few things spring to mind. There’s the fact that some of Fedor’s contemporaries from his Pride and immediate post-Pride days have continued relevance in the current UFC heavyweight division (such as Overeem and Arlovski) and Stipe has wins over some of Fedor’s scalps (Arlovski and Hunt) screams to me that the division has not only failed to progress, but has arguably regressed. Then again, I’m not wearing rose-tinted spectacles, so two more things need addressing: Mark Hunt was a superior mixed martial artist with more depth to his skillset when Stipe met him than when Fedor met him, and both he and Arlovski are depth wins for Stipe, much as they are for Fedor. My argument here is that both men have a lot of depth to their resumes, with a host of contenders of all shapes, sizes and styles. Their individual legacies must therefore be compared on two factors: their ‘key’/standout victories, and their division dominance/length of reign. 

Danny: If we’re talking about victories that have the fewest asterisks attached to them, Stipe’s win over Fabricio Werdum stands as one of the strongest between both men. Werdum was right on the heels of a crushing upset over Cain Velasquez, and Miocic’s fairly uninspired run to the title consisted of consecutive wins over the aforementioned Hunt and Arlovski. However, Stipe acquitted himself quite nicely with a beautiful KO finish of the Brazilian. In one fell swoop, Miocic snapped Werdum’s significant winning streak and cleanly stole the belt with very little issue. Considering that Werdum was the first man to ever (legitimately) defeat Fedor, this is a relevant talking point. 

Kyle: Werdum is such a weird case (and I’m going to be careful not to trample over this win because, on the whole, it’s really impressive). A late bloomer, Fabricio Werdum was already pushing 40 when he won the belt. In finally putting it all together, he then threw it all away with a bizarre performance against Stipe. One of those weird impasses where a fighter becomes really good then forgets why they’re good...? I hope this makes sense. It’s true that Stipe deserves full credit for the win, but despite being one of the all-time great heavyweights and the win itself being very clean, I have to subtract some ‘legacy points’ from it for Werdum putting in such a gnat-brained performance. 

It’s wild that all of Stipe’s biggest wins were against fighters over the age of 35. Another interesting fact is that he himself has got better with age, no longer the fighter who capitulated against the famously flaky Stefan Struve. In fact, one of Stipe’s best performances was against the youngest fighter he defended his belt against (Francis Ngannou), but I’m not so sure Francis was actually very good at MMA at that point. Measuring their effectiveness at their respective sports, Francis wasn’t even as proficient in his discipline as say, famously wide-swinging Deontay Wilder is in boxing.

Am I being too harsh here? Sure, Stipe has a lot of ‘names’ on his record, but do they carry such big name value due to being on our screens for so fucking long? As we’ve discussed, the ‘MMA has got so much better since the Pride days’ (I must stress, in terms of the meta/fighter approaches to different phases) doesn’t really wash when it comes to the heavyweight division. 

As much as I’ve said I’m not putting on my rose-tinted spectacles, please Danny, tell me if you think they might have slipped off the top of my head during some stage of writing this.

Danny: I don’t think anything you’ve said is unreasonable. It’s not fair to consider Stipe a Gastelum-esque fighter who seems pathologically incapable of beating fighters younger than 35, but some of these names have been fighting for over a decade. That sort of mileage and wear-&-tear creates a certain question of degree. However, I wouldn’t classify many of Fedor’s supplemental wins as being particularly meaningful either, and possibly less so than Miocic’s in the aggregate. Fedor deserves credit for remaining on top for as long as he did in Pride, but a lot of the strengths of his resume boils down to Cro Cop and Big Nog, the latter of whom Werdum also defeated. 

As far as Ngannou goes, I share your trepidation in terms of evaluating his merit as a win for Stipe. He’s not a particularly good MMA fighter, even by heavyweight standards, but he is a physical monolith of a human being with some of the biggest punching power in the sport. From a physicality perspective, Miocic wearing the Cameroonian down over five rounds was no small feat, as literally everybody else who has attempted that strategy has been eviscerated. I don’t know if a ‘great heavyweight win’ exists, but it isn’t insignificant that Stipe dominated him either.  

Since it is on everybody’s mind, Stipe’s two wins over Daniel Cormier strengthen his claim a great deal. Neither win was particularly clean or even dominant, but they were clear. Most of all, they demonstrate a quality of Stipe Miocic that I feel is underappreciated: his ability to reevaluate his own technical game and strive to patch up what isn’t working. It’s not always pretty, but a willingness to honestly determine where the weaknesses lie allowed Miocic to thrive into his late 30’s. Conversely, Fedor began breaking down technically before he broke down physically. 

Kyle: Of course, Nogueira also beat Werdum, when his all-around game was at an admittedly nascent stage, but let’s not pretend that ‘Big Nog’ was anywhere near his prime when Werdum turned the trick either. 

Danny: Fine.

Kyle: As for Fedor’s ‘supplemental wins’, context is needed: hot and cold as he may have been, Randleman was an incredible athlete with heavy hands, coming off the best win of his career over Cro Cop. More of a showcase for Fedor’s intangibles (which I’m sure we’ll get into when we get to our hypothetical head-to-head discussion), but crucial to contextualize all the same. Fedor dealt with Tim Sylvia in swifter fashion than his heavyweight contemporaries in the UFC did. That counts for something, even though Sylvia was a lummox. 

What do we think of Fedor’s shot run? When we do these comparisons, it seems to be ‘After Bigfoot Silva, Fedor’s career is essentially over’, which I believe to be correct, honestly. Does it add any worth to his resume at all that even whilst shot-to-fuck, he beat Frank Mir (though also-shot), that he gritted his teeth and beat Maldonado (“debatably” -Danny), or that he wiped out the quality judoka Ishii? 

As for the assertion that he broke down technically before he broke down physically, I’m going to disagree slightly and say that they perfectly coincided. The last remnants of his physical game hung around just a little bit longer, which was why he was able to bail himself out against Arlovski and Rogers in Strikeforce. Unfortunately, because of that, he seemed to think his physicality would always bail him out, leading to him arrogantly diving into Werdum’s guard again after escaping the Brazilian’s first attempt to throw his legs up and snatch something. Strategy—once one of Fedor’s greatest assets—went out of the window as his athleticism left him. Just a bad double-whammy that led to what appeared to be a steep drop off a humongous cliff. In fact, the decline was ushered in quietly. Off the back of some rough performances, he still came out with a victory. 

When we look at Stipe’s very best wins, I struggle a bit. Yes, he arguably should have beaten Junior Dos Santos twice, but even if we give him the decision the first time around, one of his best wins is against a guy who seems to understand footwork even less than Nogueira did? A guy that has never grown over the past decade? I think JDS is an excellent fighter (for heavyweight), but the man has more holes in his game than a block of Swiss cheese. 

During Stipe’s best run, he was clattered by Overeem before coming back to win, and he needed two attempts to beat Cormier (admittedly the greatest fighter either man fought). 

At least in Fedor’s absolute prime, he was briefly stunned by Fujita (not a great look admittedly) but apart from that he barely lost a round. He outstruck the best strikers, he dove into the guard of the best guard players, he could get outwrestled one moment then submit his opponent the next. I’ll omit Mark Hunt’s prolonged ‘Americana’ attempt for the sake of brevity but...yeah, that was something. Again, Hunt was a relevant fighter for years afterwards, a solid contender. A decent win for both Fedor and Stipe, in my honest opinion. 

These have more to do with his intangibles than his quality of opposition, but do they not show a greater aptitude for fighting that balances out the perceived extra depth to Stipe’s resume?

Danny: The domination category is owned by Fedor, without question. For four full years, Emelianenko was without equal in Pride; a longer reign than anybody at HW (including Miocic) has been able to match. I guess my qualifier is that a lot of Fedor’s opposition was insanely raw and unpolished. Far be it for me to declare Miocic’s opposition as being particularly dimensional, but they were varied fighters that required a marginal degree of tactical nuance from Stipe. Fabricio Werdum, Alistair Overeem, Mark Hunt, Junior Dos Santos, Daniel Cormier, and Francis Ngannou are all dangerous and potent in their own specific ways, and I’m not sure I could draw up many other heavyweights capable of defeating all of these men. Not even Fedor himself.  

The purpose of this section was to compare their resumes, but maybe a better way to look at it as a comparison between the breadth of these two fighter’s skillsets, as evidenced by their resumes. Fedor certainly demonstrated a surprisingly acute understanding of strategic gameplanning in his career, but I don’t think he’s as proven against the same variety of comparable opposition as Miocic. If Stipe’s opposition was more shopworn at the time he defeated them, they were probably also more effective veterans all the same. 

Kyle: Definitely a good point, for there was certainly a raw edge to more than one of Fedor’s opponents). However, in holding the true heavyweight title lineage from 2003 - 2010, beating a wide range of styles (and sizes: no 265lb limit for Fedor) and being able to beat some absolute weirdos shows me that Fedor is the most proven heavyweight champion of all time: Mirko Cro Cop, Nogueira twice, Mark Hunt, Mark Coleman twice, Tim Sylvia, Andrei Arlovski are the key names, but Fedor turned away challenges from Randleman, Hong-Man Choi, Heath Herring, Brett Rogers and Semmy Schilt (who I hasten to add was King of Pancrase before he became one of the most accomplished heavyweight kickboxers of all time, and thus wasn’t some raw stand-up fighter).

Sure, some of these guys would not stand up today, or at least their skillsets when analysed in a vacuum might not even compare favourably to the raw brutalist of the Ngannou that Stipe disarmed so brilliantly. However, given the violent ruleset and the weight Fedor often gave up to some of these fighters, it’s enough to close the gap for me in comparing how good these wins are relative to Stipe’s. And I must stress again: both you and I would not evaluate these opponents in this way in any division other than heavyweight. 

I will be the first to concede that Stipe Miocic is the second greatest heavyweight of all time. I would even argue that he is the only man out there who has a claim to Fedor’s throne. For me at least, ‘The Last Emperor’ is still sitting pretty on that throne, even if he’s sat closer to the edge than he ever has been before. 

Danny: I respect it. I was expecting to come away from this portion of the discussion secure in my opinion that Stipe Miocic is the greatest heavyweight of all time, but the distinction between the two is pretty narrow. However, outside of Cro Cop, I still don’t think Fedor’s resume is really that strong. A champion is only as great as his competition, and the nascence of Emelianenko’s supplementary wins really hurt his claim here. As much as I dislike him, Daniel Cormier might be the most significant fighter than either man has ever faced, and Stipe owns two victories over him. Perhaps it is just recency bias from this weekend, but Stipe winning the trilogy with DC probably counts for more than a win over Big Nog and Cormier is still a better fighter than Mark Coleman. Sorry, Kyle. 

Kyle: You never need to apologize for being wrong, Danny. I still respect you. 

Head to Head

Danny: Things get tricky here as it becomes a more hypothetical, cautionary discussion. At least in comparing resumes, we have concrete evidence to build on. In a H2H analysis, we could spend days discussing the parentheticals on this matchup and never have a definitive answer. Nonetheless, Fedor was one of the first MMA fighters who really understood how a technical game could flow into itself. He was an innovator as well as an executor. In particular, Fedor understood his own range very well, (staying just at the tip of Cro Cop’s distance before collapsing the space between) and he could attack in very MMA ways, such as transitional and interstitial strikes. Being a heavyweight with a willingness to make bigger men A) move around a lot and B) account for offense in places they weren’t used to being attacked goes a long way even today. 

Conversely, Stipe threw a wrench into the heavyweight division by being pretty good at stuff, and changing up his approach when the occasion called for it. He proved himself as one of the bigger punchers in heavyweight history, but he didn’t know that about himself from the outset. He instead built himself as a stock wrestle-boxer with a knack for pressure and a solid jab. During a fairly extensive rise to the top, Miocic got a feel for a variety of opponent types and it meant that he developed some unique wrinkles for the big man division. Against JDS, Stipe became a cage-cutting, power-punching pressure fighter. Ngannou forced Miocic to fence and wrestle off the backfoot, and he even rediscovered the glory of bodypunching in the middle of a firefight with Daniel Cormier. Holes have always existed in Stipe’s defense, but for the most part, he’s remained adept and multifaceted. 

Kyle: This is relatively simple for me: Fedor was quicker of hand and foot, superior defensively to Cormier, and would keep Stipe guessing with his feints. Discarding the ring vs. cage arguments (which both Danny and I discussed in a hypothetical Fedor vs. Brock Lesnar discussion with our esteemed colleague, Sriram Muralidaran) let’s just assume they’re in a cage or ring. Nothing changes for either man and they can reasonably deploy their individual skill sets without being hampered by the setting. No fighter that needed fifteen minutes to figure out Daniel Cormier was open to the body is going to outwit Fedor Emelianenko, in my honest opinion. I’m going to take Fedor by decision in what would ultimately be a competitive fight, with Stipe trying all he could to adjust, but Fedor getting off the better shots and dumping Stipe on his ass a few times. Fedor was genuinely great at using his strikes to set up trips and throws and I think he would dictate the pace and stop Stipe from building a consistent rhythm. 

Danny: At the risk of sounding increasingly biased, I hold the generally unpopular opinion that Stipe Miocic would’ve likely crushed Fedor. The Croatian might not be the best wrestler heavyweight has ever seen, but he was swift and efficient with the snatch-single and he could blend the threats off his jab and right hand with feints. I realize the speed disparity could’ve been disastrous for Miocic, but a consistent and thudding jab would’ve been just as challenging for Fedor to deal with. I criticized Fedor’s competition as being somewhat nascent, but Emelianeko was a product of this time, as well. Fedor would’ve struggled to fight grips and frame against the larger, more powerful Miocic and I haven’t seen enough defensive wrestling poise from Fedor to give me confidence. With Fedor’s usual bifurcation of ‘sweep’ or ‘stand up’ off his back, I’ve seen Emelianenko get shattered by a worse wrestler and top player than Miocic in the form of Bigfoot Silva. Yikes. 

Kyle: Fedor had excellent reactive head movement, and his ability to bounce in and out of range (plus his lead hand feints) would take some of the potency away from Miocic’s jab in my opinion. And Fedor’s blitzes would cause Stipe much the same issues as Cormier did in my honest opinion (sans eye pokes as Fedor wasn’t a dirty fighter). I do not see the Fedor that charged into a Brett Rogers’ jab and got his nose smashed in as prime Fedor. That wasn’t the first time he saw a jab, and Rogers wasn’t some new benchmark on the evolutionary scale of MMA heavyweights. 

However, this may be where the different rule sets come into play, though. Forget the ring vs. cage debate, if Fedor is allowed to blast Stipe with soccer kicks after scoring a flash knockdown (which, as we know with Stipe, is a definite possibility) then we might be looking at a different fight than one that plays out under the unified rules. That’s what makes this tricky. It’s much the same dynamic when trying to pit, say, Joe Louis against James Jeffries: if Jeffries isn’t impeded from clinching for minutes on end, and if the fight is a ‘fight to the finish’, a seemingly predictable victory for Louis becomes harder to envision when you place him into a fight with a murkier ruleset. As much as I wanted to avoid it, it might be a case of ring vs. cage, 10 minute first round, stomps/soccer kicks/no elbows on the ground, etc., etc., vs. the more palatable (and also easier to analyse) UFC rules and set-up we’re more accustomed to. 

The lens we view this matchup with is important, despite my want to eliminate it from our discussion. Based on my earlier provisos to make this as ‘fair’ as possible, under some mixed ruleset in a setting that doesn’t prohibit either man from doing their best work, I’ll still go with Fedor. I maintain that he isn’t merely one of the best heavyweights I’ve ever seen, nor simply one of the best mixed martial artists I’ve ever seen. He’s one of the best fighters I’ve ever seen. 

 I would also add that Stipe has never faced anyone with the hips and dexterity of Fedor. Perhaps Werdum, but as we know, it never went to that phase due to the swift conclusion on the feet, so I don’t think we can look at the Antonio Silva fight and predict a mat-based mauling. 

Here’s an interesting question for you, Danny. I’m taking Fedor of either the Cro Cop fight or the third fight with Big Nog as the ostensible ‘best’ version of Fedor (so, ‘04-‘05 Fedor being his absolute peak). Which fight would you say is the ‘best version’ of Miocic?

Danny: Haha! No rules like Pride rules. Prime Miocic is difficult to pin down, because Stipe has never shown a massive dip in athleticism, nor has he ever demonstrated a massive surge in technical ability either. He’s remained pretty consistent for upwards of five years now, and that in and of itself, is a pretty remarkable achievement at heavyweight. If I had to pick one version of Miocic that stands out as the best, it would have to be around the second JDS fight in 2017. Stipe was punching as hard as he ever has, was still reliably durable, and looked as polished in all facets of the game. He was a very good heavyweight!

On brand, I feel like this fight could be particularly interesting over five rounds, as Fedor possessed great speed and cardio for a heavyweight. If Miocic were to consistently force Fedor into reacting to the single- leg/jab/1-2 changeup, however, I also feel like the Russian would find himself exhausted rather quickly. Of the wrestlers that Fedor fought, none of them really understood how to combine threats to create depth nor did they have the punishing, gritty top pressure that Stipe possesses. Maybe it’s a bit reductive to reduce one of the ultimate ‘who would win’ MMA hypotheticals into a simple equation of wrestling, but Stipe’s brand of wrestling was reliable. He never got bored holding a guy down and beating him up for 25 minutes, if that’s what it took to win. Assuming the speed wouldn’t just catch him out (and it genuinely might have), I’m imagining a competitive, scrappy first round in a fight that gradually becomes more one-sided as it progresses. 

Kyle: One thing we can both agree on after all this back-and-forth is this: the very best heavyweights weigh around 230-240lbs. That’s the sweet spot. When it comes to ‘greatest’ and ‘best’, behemoths need not apply. 

Conclusion

Danny: No matter which side of the debate you err on, the evidence seems irrefutable that these are the two greatest heavyweights in the history of the sport. Both men have cemented a place in the MMA history books with their dominance, resumes, and skill relative to the rest of the big boys. It’s a wash, and I can’t begrudge anybody who stands with either man. Kyle, you and I could switch positions on this argument and still have a solid debate as to who is #1. As we round out this debate, though, I do have one question stirring in the back of my mind. How much would it take for Stipe to decidedly upend Fedor in your eyes? 

Kyle: Much as I think the biggest name in the big leagues is already past his best, how could I not be impressed if Miocic becomes the first man to legitimately beat Jon Jones? It would likely be too eye-catching a name on his paper resume to deny him the top spot, in spite of Jones’ recent disappointing performances. 

Much as I believe his current devastating win streak is due to the dearth of talent in the division, Francis Ngannou would be another solid win, especially considering Miocic is already past his own athletic prime and nearing the dreaded 4-0. 

The fact that Stipe intends to carry on means he can add more to an excellent resume, and that alone will solidify his claim. Longevity and depth of resume are very important as we’ve already established, and as I’ve already said it’s a close call. Any more slip-ups and I can’t see him making it. Getting nuked by Ngannou or having his crown snatched by ‘Bones’, would make any claim to the top spot untenable in my eyes, as dreadful as the latter is to think about. 

Of course, it’s always difficult ranking active fighters. Even if Stipe loses, we may recognise later that it doesn’t undo with all the great things he did before. Maybe his successor doesn’t hold onto the crown for too long, and they pale in comparison to the former king. Hard to say, and it would be unfair to hold Miocic to different standards than Fedor, whose shambolic post-prime run has already been mostly written off. A few more impressive wins and I could see my stance changing. Fair? 

Danny: Fair. Personally, I think Stipe has been at the top spot for a while now, but it’s never easy to comprehensively evaluate a fighter in the middle of their career. Of course, I don’t think Stipe is in the middle of his career, as he’s casually mentioned retirement here and there in media interviews, but if he were to defeat Ngannou again, the debate likely settles itself. To throw a curveball at you, a win over Dominick Reyes at heavyweight for Stipe would probably impress me more than a win over Jon Jones at this point. Ditto Curtis Blaydes. I digress, The Fight Site has a reputation for relentlessly criticizing heavier fighters. Kyle and I both have our opinions on this, but we can agree that whomever fills the #3 spot behind Stipe and Fedor remains miles behind. Suck it, Cain.